Ray Smith 
Member since Sep 7, 2011



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Re: “The Science of Addiction


Having argued with true believers for the past 8 or 9 years, I can honestly predict what another true believer has to say, it's like you all are following a script, and in a way you are: the Big Book.

You talk about me putting words into you mouth, what about you claiming that I said AA keeps a list of failures and successes? And what about "It's good that you found medications that allow you to live without getting loaded." You're making the claim that I'm on medication as if there is something wrong with taking medications. For the past two years I've been taking medication for a migraine-like condition, but that's it for the past 8 years.

When you say, "Asking your Doctor to chemically fine tune out the imaginary voices out is wise, Ray", you're trying to paint me as a crazy person. I admit that I had a problem with depression, you want to make me out to be someone who has trouble with reality. You're promoting a program that does not improve on the rate of natural remission while raising the mortality rate, while I promote evidence based practices. Who's the crazy one?

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Posted by Ray Smith on 09/11/2011 at 12:25 PM

Re: “The Science of Addiction

The first thing you said was "Vital and important knowledge garnered from bouncing in and out of AA for years..."

That's exactly what I was saying about AA grabbing credit, you're trying to turn my very negative AA experience into a positive for AA. I'll bet you say that people not working the program is the reason for failure; AA wants the credit, but none of the blame.

Attacking me doesn't change the fact that AA has about a 5% success rate, the same as no treatment at all, while significantly raising the mortality rate.

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Posted by Ray Smith on 09/10/2011 at 12:03 AM

Re: “The Science of Addiction

AA wants to claim every success and disavow every failure.

The "vital and important knowledge" I learned in AA was that I had a lifelong disease with a genetic link that I was powerless to do anything about so nothing was my fault. I was taught that even God cannot cure alcoholism, but if I worked a good program and prayed properly, He would remove my desire to drink on a daily basis.

This type of information? I used this knowledge to justify relapse, in order to stay stopped, I had to deprogram from what I learned in AA. I was diagnosed with depression before I started drinking, it was depression that caused me to go back to drinking each time. Folks in AA and rehab told me that all alcoholics are alike, that if I quit drinking, the depression would magically go away. What worked for me was getting help for the depression that fueled my drinking and taking responsibility, not faith healing.

You want to go with the scientists? Fine:
-Dr. Brandsma found that A.A. increased the rate of binge drinking
-Dr. Ditman found that A.A. increased the rate of rearrests for public drunkenness
-Dr. Walsh found that "free A.A." made later hospitalization more expensive
-Doctors Orford and Edwards found that having a doctor talk to the patient for just one hour was just as effective as a whole year of A.A.-based treatment.
-Dr. George E. Vaillant, the A.A. Trustee, found that A.A. treatment was completely ineffective, and raised the death rate in alcoholics. No other way of treating alcoholics produced such a high death rate as did Alcoholics Anonymous.

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Posted by Ray Smith on 09/08/2011 at 10:30 AM

Re: “The Science of Addiction

Brian, you're just reciting what you've heard in the rooms. Congratulations on stopping, fine if you wan to credit God and AA, but I believe you deserve the credit.

I bounced in and out of the rooms for years before I turned my back on AA, took responsibility for my addiction so that I could take responsibility for my recovery and have been sober for over ten years. I now work in mental health, primarily with those who have coexisting substance abuse issues.

People are not powerless over alcohol, people have been quitting on their own for thousands of years before AA came along and will continue to do so long after AA is a footnote in history. The NIAAA’s 2001–2002 National Epidemiolo­gic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions interviewe­d over 43,000 people. Using the criteria for alcohol dependence found in the DSM-IV, they found:
"About 75 percent of persons who recover from alcohol dependence do so without seeking any kind of help, including specialty alcohol (rehab) programs and AA. Only 13 percent of people with alcohol dependence ever receive specialty alcohol treatment.­"

The Spenser quote is another piece of AA misinformation:

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Posted by Ray Smith on 09/07/2011 at 11:04 PM

Re: “The Science of Addiction

ASAM is an AA front group pushing dogma as fact.

The only way to become an alcoholic is to abuse alcohol long enough and hard enough to become an alcoholic. Genetically a person may be more prone to become an alcoholic, but they are not born alcoholics.

There is no 'scientific basis' on which 12step recovery works, AA does not improve on the rate of natural remission, that is people quitting with no treatment. The are evidence-based practices that have better success rates, but at the moment, AA/12step facilitation have a stranglehold on the recovery industry.

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Posted by Ray Smith on 09/07/2011 at 12:26 AM

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